Talk:Mughal Empire

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mughal Empire article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6: 3 months

Afghanistan Top‑importance

	Afghanistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

India: History Top‑importance

	India portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Indian history workgroup (assessed as Top-importance).
	This article was last assessed in February 2015.

Central Asia Mid‑importance

	Asia portal Mughal Empire is part of WikiProject Central Asia, a project to improve all Central Asia-related articles. This includes but is not limited to Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Tajikistan, Tibet, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Xinjiang and Central Asian portions of Iran, Pakistan and Russia, region-specific topics, and anything else related to Central Asia. If you would like to help improve this and other Central Asia-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.Central AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Central AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Central AsiaCentral Asia
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Pakistan Top‑importance

	Pakistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Pakistani history.

Bangladesh Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bangladesh, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bangladesh on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BangladeshWikipedia:WikiProject BangladeshTemplate:WikiProject BangladeshBangladesh

Top

This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

The article falls into the work area of the History workgroup of WikiProject Bangladesh

WikiProject Bangladesh To-do list:

Add more images to Bangladesh Liberation War and related pages
Clean up Climate change in Bangladesh, it needs a lot of work
Clean up History of Bangladesh after independence, it needs NPOV
Improve Bangladesh back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion)
Improve Bengali language back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion)
Improve Bengalis and related pages
Take a look at the requested articles.
Make a MRT line 3 article.
Extend, add an infobox and a map of New Eskaton to New Eskaton.

Islam High‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Former countries (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesFormer countries

South Asia Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject South Asia, which aims to improve the quality and status of all South Asia-related articles. For more information, please visit the Project page.South AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject South AsiaTemplate:WikiProject South AsiaSouth Asia
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in to an autoconfirmed or confirmed account (usually granted automatically to accounts with 10 edits and an age of 4 days)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Multiple Maps

I have added another map with switcher

The peak extent will still be the default one tho JingJongPascal (talk) 18:21, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know you didn't realize since you're on mobile, but your edit totally broke the article display on desktop. I also do not think two maps are necessary. Consider asking first next time. Remsense ‥ 论 00:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added multiple Maps as Ottoman Empire

Also had multiple depicting their change in territories, I didn't realise the article broke on desktop JingJongPascal (talk) 07:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mughal empire was not empire from the beginning of babur, rather it became after akbar reign, so like u ppl created two pages for both chola empire and dynasty, pls do the same here or remove the dynasty page of cholas. This is serious matter of fact which needs to be looked into Suimadniggszh (talk) 05:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the case is same like mughals, even cholas became empire only after rajaraja Suimadniggszh (talk) 05:43, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The AP (talk) 13:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mughal rulers

Mughal rules is (AD1557-1560) 106.222.164.36 (talk) 13:35, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Official Language

For user:Malik-Al-Hind

The second official language of East India Company rule in India from 1773 to 1837 was Persian. Only in 1837 was the official language changed to Urdu, which was then called "Hindustani."^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5] It is unlikely that Urdu was the official language of the Mughals. The British would not have waited 64 years. As for the Wikipedia page Hindustani, it is a POV-page, which perpetrates a view held mainly in post-colonial India, that by muddying the waters between Urdu and Modern Standard Hindi, and calling it Hindustani, they can keep alive the fiction that Urdu has not suffered a decline in the land of its birth. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:42, 18 February 2025 (UTC) Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:42, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

At this point you ignored all the WP:RS backed up sources i quoted. Besides for that, I agree Persian was the official language too but Urdu too.

"During the Mogul rule, Persian replaced the position of Sanskrit as the official language in administration especially in conducting the court proceedings, etc. Persian continued as the official language till the time of Emperor Shajahan in the seventeen century, when Hindustani (Urdu) took the position of the official language in the Mughal courts, yet Sanskrit continued to be used as the intellectual language in teaching classical sciences, philosophy, religion, etc. That synergy of Persian, Urdu (Hindustani) and Sanskrit had continued as the administrative and intellectual languages during the Mughal period"[1]

As per this source, Persian remained the language used in administrative and other official purposes but Urdu too had become an official language and even started having more influence than Persian in some instances.

According to contemporary poet Mir Taqi Mir "Urdu was the language of Hindustan by the authority of the King"^[6]^[7]

And not just these 3 sources, but also the 2 sources cited in the main page's infobox which clearly say Shah Jahan declared Urdu (Hindustani) to be the official language too. So don't remove it. If you have problems with Hindustani then take this discussion to the talk page of that article. Till then, we will replace Hindustani with Urdu. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 03:33, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Those are just cherry picked sources, which you would be hard-pressed to find without Google. They have no thematic commonality. It is a matter of due weight. Please read WP:TERTIARY.

Examine the Mughal coinage. It is all in Persian. Examine the coinage—pictures of which I have added to WP from my personal collection—that the East India Company issued during its early rule in the name of Emperor Shah Alam: File:East India Company Silver Half Rupee 1787 Bengal Presidency Murshidabad Mint in the name of Shah Alam II Mughal Emperor.jpg It is all in Persian.

Examine the article in Britannica on Urdu written by C. M. Naim (see quote below).

Examine the book by Ruth Laila Schmidt on Urdu grammar, see quote below.

Urdu became standardized as a literary language during late Mughal times, see for example Karen Schwarz here, but there was no systematic Urdu prose writing until the British began to promote it at Fort William College during early Company rule. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:06, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to do an NPOV search among scholarly sources, then, "mughal" "official language" inpublisher:university is a much better way to do it, and you will see that scholar after scholar lines up to state that it was Persian. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:43, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See Naim's article on Urdu in Britannica, which states, "The first three centuries are dominated by poetry. Urdu prose truly began only in the 19th century, with translations of Persian dāstāns, books prepared at the Delhi College and the Fort William College at Calcutta, and later with the writers of the Aligarh movement.

Ruth Laila Schmidt's introduction to Chapter 14, "Persian Elements in Urdu," in Essentials of Urdu Grammar, Routledge, 1999, which states: "Urdu developed in close contact with Persian, which was the language of administration and education during the period of Muslim rule in India. Even after Urdu began to replace Persian as the language of poetry in the eighteenth century, Persian retained its official status for another century, and remained a rich source of literary vocabulary in Urdu."Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:54, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Mir is not a historian; unlike Nazeer Akbarabadi, he did not even write Shahr Ashob. We acknowledge him in the lead of Delhi as a poet, one of two great ones in Urdu from Delhi, but not a historian. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:54, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

^ Garcia, Humberto (2020), England Re-Oriented: How Central and South Asian Travelers Imagined the West, 1750–1857, Cambridge University Press, p. 128, ISBN 978-1-108-49564-6, "Hindoostanee" was instrumental for Company rule in that Gilchrist's grammar books, dictionaries, and translations helped to standardize Urdu as an official language for lower level judicial courts and revenue administration in 1837, replacing Persian.
^ Schiffman, Harold (2011), Language Policy and Language Conflict in Afghanistan and Its Neighbors: The Changing Politics of Language Choice, BRILL, p. 11, ISBN 978-90-04-20145-3, In 1837 Urdu was formally adopted by the British, in place of Persian, as the language of interaction between the Government (which from then on conducted its affairs in English) and the local population.
^ Everaert, Christine (2009), Tracing the Boundaries between Hindi and Urdu: Lost and Added in Translation between 20th Century Short Stories, BRILL, pp. 253–, ISBN 978-90-04-18223-3, It was only in 1837 that Persian lost its position as official language of India to Urdu and to English in the higher levels of administration.
^ Bayly, Christopher Alan (1999), Empire and Information: Intelligence Gathering and Social Communication in India, 1780–1870, Cambridge University Press, p. 286, ISBN 978-0-521-66360-1, Paradoxically, many British also clung to Persian. Indeed, the so-called Urdu that replaced Persian as the court language after 1837 was recognisably Persian as far as its nouns were concerned. The courtly heritage of Persian was also to exercise a constraint on the British cultivation of Hindustani/Urdu.
^ Lelyveld, David (1993). "Colonial Knowledge and the Fate of Hindustani". Comparative Studies in Society and History. 35 (4). Cambridge University Press: 665–682, 674. The earlier grammars and dictionaries made it possible for the British government to replace Persian with vernacular languages at the lower levels of judicial and revenue administration in 1837, that is, to standardize and index terminology for official use and provide for its translation to the language of the ultimate ruling authority, English. For such purposes Hindustani was equated with Urdu, as opposed to any geographically defined dialect of Hindi and was given official status through large parts of north India. Written in the Persian script with a largely Persian and, via Persian, an Arabic vocabulary, Urdu stood at the shortest distance from the previous situation and was easily attainable by the same personnel.
^ Arthur Dudney (2015). Delhi:Pages From a Forgotten History. Hay House. ISBN 978-93-84544-31-7. Archived from the original on 9 June 2023. Retrieved 19 May 2023.
^ S. R. Sharma · (2014). Life, Times and Poetry of Mir. Partridge Publishing. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-4828-1478-1. Archived from the original on 16 July 2023. Retrieved 19 May 2023.

[Garcia2020-1] Garcia, Humberto (2020), England Re-Oriented: How Central and South Asian Travelers Imagined the West, 1750–1857, Cambridge University Press, p. 128, ISBN 978-1-108-49564-6, "Hindoostanee" was instrumental for Company rule in that Gilchrist's grammar books, dictionaries, and translations helped to standardize Urdu as an official language for lower level judicial courts and revenue administration in 1837, replacing Persian.

[Schiffman2011-2] Schiffman, Harold (2011), Language Policy and Language Conflict in Afghanistan and Its Neighbors: The Changing Politics of Language Choice, BRILL, p. 11, ISBN 978-90-04-20145-3, In 1837 Urdu was formally adopted by the British, in place of Persian, as the language of interaction between the Government (which from then on conducted its affairs in English) and the local population.

[everaert-3] Everaert, Christine (2009), Tracing the Boundaries between Hindi and Urdu: Lost and Added in Translation between 20th Century Short Stories, BRILL, pp. 253–, ISBN 978-90-04-18223-3, It was only in 1837 that Persian lost its position as official language of India to Urdu and to English in the higher levels of administration.

[BaylyBayly1999-4] Bayly, Christopher Alan (1999), Empire and Information: Intelligence Gathering and Social Communication in India, 1780–1870, Cambridge University Press, p. 286, ISBN 978-0-521-66360-1, Paradoxically, many British also clung to Persian. Indeed, the so-called Urdu that replaced Persian as the court language after 1837 was recognisably Persian as far as its nouns were concerned. The courtly heritage of Persian was also to exercise a constraint on the British cultivation of Hindustani/Urdu.

[lelyveld-hindustani-5] Lelyveld, David (1993). "Colonial Knowledge and the Fate of Hindustani". Comparative Studies in Society and History. 35 (4). Cambridge University Press: 665–682, 674. The earlier grammars and dictionaries made it possible for the British government to replace Persian with vernacular languages at the lower levels of judicial and revenue administration in 1837, that is, to standardize and index terminology for official use and provide for its translation to the language of the ultimate ruling authority, English. For such purposes Hindustani was equated with Urdu, as opposed to any geographically defined dialect of Hindi and was given official status through large parts of north India. Written in the Persian script with a largely Persian and, via Persian, an Arabic vocabulary, Urdu stood at the shortest distance from the previous situation and was easily attainable by the same personnel.

[6] Arthur Dudney (2015). Delhi:Pages From a Forgotten History. Hay House. ISBN 978-93-84544-31-7. Archived from the original on 9 June 2023. Retrieved 19 May 2023.

[7] S. R. Sharma · (2014). Life, Times and Poetry of Mir. Partridge Publishing. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-4828-1478-1. Archived from the original on 16 July 2023. Retrieved 19 May 2023.

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

[7]